Sun Benefits By Using Sensible Exposure Patterns And Cleaner Sunblock

Sunscreen advice usually comes as a binary: fear the sun or ignore the risks. We take a different path and give you a practical framework for sun protection that doesn’t sacrifice the real health benefits of sunlight. From the start, we separate the roles of UVA and UVB so you can understand what actually causes sunburn, what drives vitamin D production, and why UVA is linked with skin aging while still playing a role in nitric oxide release and circulation. 

Then we get concrete about “sensible sunlight exposure,” a balanced approach popularised by vitamin D researcher Dr Michael Holick. We talk about how timing, latitude, altitude, season, and skin pigmentation change your safe window for unprotected sun, and why regular gradual exposure can build a “solar callus” that improves tolerance. We also cover a detail many people miss: most household glass blocks UVB but allows UVA through, which matters for anyone spending long hours near windows or on the road. 

Finally, we tackle sunscreen safety and label reading. We discuss concerns around common sunscreen chemicals like parabens and benzophenone-3 (often called oxybenzone), the reality of transdermal absorption with frequent reapplication, and why combining products can amplify exposure, especially when sunscreen overlaps with insect repellent. We share how we use the Environmental Working Group (EWG) tools like the Skin Deep app, clarify what SPF and “broad spectrum” really mean, and name the mineral sunscreens we trust, with an emphasis on zinc oxide and non-nano options. 

If this helps you rethink your summer routine, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find smarter, safer guidance on sunlight, sunscreen, and skin health.

Environmental Working Group: ewg.org

www.thehealthedgepodcast.com

Transcript

Spring Sun And The Sunscreen Dilemma

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Health Edge, translating the science of self-care. Great to be with you. I'm Mark Pettis and I'm with my friend and colleague, John Bagnulo. John, good morning. Good morning, Mark. Finally feels like spring here in New England. Finally feels like spring as uh May rolls along. And it uh saw our first hummingbird yesterday at the theater. That's that's the um the sign of warmer days ahead. So it's always very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

And and and definitely a nice time of year. And as sun season is upon us, John, and we talk a lot about sunlight. A common question that I get asked, uh, and I know you do as well, John, revolves around um sunscreens, sunblocks, uh, when to wear them, what what to look for in a in a product. Uh as we know, um there are times of the day that we will advocate for getting sun exposure without the use of of sunscreens or sunblocks. Uh, and that that sensible sunlight exposure is so important to allow the appropriate dose of the medicinal arrays of sunlight. Um, but there are potential harms. And so having um, I think some confidence in the kinds of products you're using for your own personal protection, as well as that of your family, right? Uh there, these are um uh important considerations when you think about how best to protect in a way that will give you benefit with as little risk as possible. So good topic, John.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, and I think it's a you know, it's a really tough, it's a tough question for many families in particular, right, to get answers uh around if you have young children, you know, I think some some people are conflicted with you know putting or applying something that has, you know, potentially uh you know toxic chemicals in them on their on their kids' skin, but they're also you know very concerned about skin cancer and the health of their kids in that area. So I think it's a it's a great topic for us to dive into because um, you know, it's always like like you just said, there's always a kind of a cost-benefit ratio, risk-reward ratio for any approach, right? When it comes to lifestyle, medicine, or the you know, the interface here between things that can be damaging to our cells, uh, you know, on whatever front you're talking about. And I think people hear reports about sunscreens, sunblocks, and you know, some of these chemicals. And I think maybe we can get into at least one or two of them today that do have some apparent risks, right? If they're if they're being applied, certainly regularly, regular doses, which kids would have or even adults would get over the course of a summer. You know, getting outside and having something applied to you daily, it's um, you know, it's a big, it's a big area under the curve, so to speak, with respect to toxicity. So I think getting into that and understanding that, you know, anytime you get above an SPF-8, you know, you're you're gonna block some of that medicinal value that you just mentioned with respect to sunlight. So yeah, I think it's a great topic at this time of year. And it's one that, you know, I, as a, as a father, you know, in our family, my wife, uh Joana does a remarkable job sourcing good sunscreens, and we can share some of that with our with our listeners.

UVA Vs UVB Basics

SPEAKER_00 3:37

That'd be great, John. And maybe a good place to start is just a kind of a 101 about ultraviolet rays of light. Because really what we're talking about in sunscreens is their ability to block ultraviolet wavelengths. These are the uh, as people will recall on the light spectrum, there's the visible light spectrum from sort of the the purple uh into the blues, around 400 nanometers. These are shorter wavelengths of light to the far end of the visible spectrum, which would be red light, and that takes you up to about 660, 680 nanometers, and then you've got the non-visible light. And and on the short wavelength, then that's where ultraviolet light comes in. And there are um three wavelengths of ultraviolet light. There's ultraviolet C, which people don't hear much about because ultraviolet C is pretty much um scattered in our upper atmosphere. It's the shortest wavelength of ultraviolet light, and so very little, if any, reaches the surface of our planet. So it's really not a player as it relates to skin health, sunburning, uh, vitamin D, things like that. Um, then you get into the UVB, ultraviolet B, and this is about 280 to 320 nanometers of light. So this is a relatively narrow range uh within the ultraviolet spectrum, and it's ultraviolet B wavelengths that burn. That's how a lot of people remember. It's the B that burns, and it's the burning that can certainly be a concern over time as it relates to skin cancer risk. And obviously, you know, anyone who's ever had a sunburn, it is it is something you want to avoid uh at all cost. Uh, but it's the ultraviolet B wavelength that that really um is is important. It's also the source of vitamin D, as we frequently talk about. Um so the so the plus side is certainly vitamin D production, which is hugely important, uh, but it is that wavelength that can burn. And and then the third is ultraviolet A, which is a little bit longer, and and that'll go from like 320 nanometers to about 400 nanometers of light. So ultraviolet A is most associated with accelerated aging of the skin, loss of uh what we would call elastin collagen, that more wrinkly, um, less uh turbor or integrity of the skin. And um uh those are a little bit longer wavelengths, and uh, and while they're not as associated with skin cancer as ultraviolet B is, um certainly any sun screen, sun block, you want to have protection at both the ultraviolet A and B ends of that ultraviolet continuum. So I just wanted to point that out as a basis.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

I think those are really good, really good points, you know, in terms of the different effects. And I the one thing I would point out with UVA is, you know, to your point, it definitely can accelerate the aging of the skin, but it also does help with um nitric oxide production. So it has value much like UVB does with respect to vitamin D. UVA is a potent nitric oxide liberator, so that can really help people with circulation, uh, having better cardiovascular parameters as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Really important. And and I think the as as we will um uh take this discussion forward in the the direction of remembering that uh you know nature really has very unique uh packaging of its miraculous presence. And and so these are wavelengths of light that while they have risk and one wants to avoid overexposure, uh they have tremendous benefit. And so this is why throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you will, can be so um devastating uh because I think we're in kind of a culture, and certainly the medical enterprise can be guilty of this, is you begin to adopt this sort of all or nothing. Uh sunlight is bad, ultraviolet light is bad, um uh avoid it at all at all costs. And and the truth is there are great costs with complete avoidance of those wavelengths of light. And so these these nuances get lost in the often in the public health messaging, and ultimately for the consumer, it it takes on the perception of all or none. And um we're gonna offer some uh shades of gray, if you will, here with this interpretation. Uh, the other the other thing, just while we're on the topic of ultraviolet A and B, John, um that uh often I'll have people ask me about uh windows and um um you know driving in your automobile, and some people are on the road a lot getting, you know, most um glass, um clear glass for for home use, commercial use, uh will block UVB light, those those shorter wavelengths of light. But UVA, because it's a little bit longer, will penetrate and get through most typical glass. Exceptions might be uh, you know, windshields of automobiles will be treated in a way that can block both A and B. Uh, but most glass will allow UVA light to go through. So if you're near a window and and you know that you you can get some exposure there. Uh you may not burn, but um some people are aware of that. Um and uh yeah, that you know, that I think are just some practical points. You know, even indoors, there can be some exposure, uh, particularly if you're near a window and and you happen to be getting a fair amount of sun through that that window.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, and to that point, UVA penetrates a little deeper into our skin as well, um, which again, for better or worse, right? I I look at the the upside of that is it has the ability to reach tiny capillaries and blood vessels, you know, a couple centimeters below the surface of the skin, which is remarkable, right? And infrared also has fairly, fairly deep penetrating uh qualities as well. And so when you think about the we we tend to think about just the skin, like the very, very outermost layer of our body, but I you know, again, the the interactions between different wavelengths of light is much deeper than people, I think, appreciate, Mark. And the ability to reach mitochondria, tiny blood vessels, you know, improve circulation. Um, it's it's really remarkable if you take the outermost three or four centimeters of the human body. That's that's a huge percentage of our volume, right? And so, you know, again, there we look at the outer, outer, outermost layer of the body and we think about just that surface almost like a you know, like a photo, like a solar panel, but it's much, much deeper. And I try to look at the body as more of a battery, you know, where you're getting a charge from this light, and it's driving pathways and energy systems that I just don't think people appreciate. So, you know, we mostly talk about vitamin D because there's been so much research on that with UVB, but it is fascinating when you get into the other wavelengths, and then you consider that a sun block might block all of those wavelengths, right? And so you're you're losing this window of time every day, you're you know, without any exposure, because again, we're such a monolithic society. That's basically when you you did a you know such an amazing job of articulating how we're all or nothing. That's the mindset around sunlight. And so many people have the um the whiteboard effect, right? Where they're just no sun, they they look at it as as optimal because it's just again, they're putting all their all their chips in the you know, in the in the skin cancer basket, so to speak. And I I just think it's important to look at the body as you know, much more than this is much more than a vitamin D conversation. It's it's it has so much to do with cardiovascular health, has so much to do with mitochondrial health. Um, and you could go into every facet of physiology, right? Mental health. And so it's just it's amazing that you know, and I'll just summarize it this way. I I feel like for the sake of having younger looking skin or a lower risk of basal cell skin cancer, people have so many people, I should say, not everyone, has a have adopted a zero sunlight policy, sun exposure policy. And I, you know, we're seeing the consequences of it now. So, you know, hopefully this conversation around sunscreens that you know don't have the chemicals that you know we we should have concerns around, um, but that you might not get you know as much protection from at the end of the day. Hopefully that can, for our listeners and for people, can bridge that those two worlds where you can have a healthy amount of sun exposure, you can put something on your skin that you know you don't have to have the same concerns about with respect to toxicity, and they can get you to that happy medium. I mean, I think that's goal today.

Sensible Sun Exposure Timing

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Beautiful. So many great points there, John. And it reminds me much as we talk about the food matrix, how an isolated ingredient, which becomes the focal point of the research or the clinical paper, um, that doesn't take into account the matrix of nutrients that accompany that particular nutrient of interest changes the whole context. And so we know, for example, that ultraviolet exposure when it is also accompanied by red, infrared, near, mid, and far infrared frequencies of light, and it's infrared light, which is the most abundant wavelengths of light that reach the surface of our planet, that you there's a that matrix of light, in much the same way that we talk about the matrix of nutrients in food, uh mitigates uh that that risk. Uh so when people go out, it's not right, it's not like to your point, they're just getting ultraviolet light. Uh they're getting a whole orchestra of light, and it's the it's these uh the these these matrices of light frequencies uh where they just inherently bring balance to the benefit and to the risk reduction uh in this conversation. So I I think those are just really important principles, John. So why don't let's start with um uh this sort of concept. I think I first heard this by Dr. Michael Holleck at Boston University, Boston Medical Center, and and Dr. Holleck is I think one of the world's most uh balanced uh experts in in this topic, tremendous researcher. And um we'll we'll upload a few of his papers, John. But he he introduced this concept of sensible sunlight exposure. Um how would you interpret that, John, um, as you think about uh times of day where the application of a sunscreen is less urgent, and times of day where you definitely want to be cautious about direct exposure that's unproductive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, no, I mean I think it's uh like to your point, he's he's super reasonable. I mean, he comes at this from a public health perspective. So, you know, he's he's he's not focused on one particular area, let's say, of health that might be more or less influenced by vitamin D and sun exposure. He's looking at, you know, just about quality of life, right? And and weighing kind of every condition in terms of what are the, you know, what are the cost-benefit ratios for every aspect of our health with more or less sun exposure, not you know, not overweighing skin cancer, but looking at everything, prostate cancer, cardiovascular disease, and understanding that there is a relationship between sun exposure and all of these different diseases or of disease you know processes in different systems of the body. So, you know, I like how you frame Michael Hollik's work. Uh, it's I think it's remarkable in many ways, and he is very reasonable. You know, he's not asking people to burn, but if I were to summarize it, Mark, it would be how much sun can you get without without burning? I mean, I think that at the end of the day, that's what people need to understand. And it's a function of latitude, right? Where a person is living. It's a function of the amount of melanin in their skin, right? How much, how much, how pigmented their skin is. That's going to be a huge component to this. Altitude, time of year, those those are four right there. And, you know, again, something that Michael Hollik has not done, but other people have started to investigate is also the role of the diet. We know that diets very high in polyunsaturated fats lead to skin that burns, you know, much easier than diets that are higher in saturated fats. So there's there's that component to all of this as well. But even if we just stuck with those first four, I think for people of fair complexion living at a more temperate latitude, somewhere like, let's say, the mid-Atlantic states here, up into up even up into like southern New England, you know, you're looking at at least 30 minutes a day, is what is necessary. But it doesn't have to be at noon or at two in the afternoon. It could be from, again, it could be from 9 to 9:30, it could be from 4 to 4:30 in the afternoon. So it could be before work, after work. Um, on someone's lunch break, it might you know only take 15 or 20 minutes to get you to that place of reasonable sun exposure. But again, when we say reasonable, I think most people go to a limit. And I come at it from a different angle. I said, make sure you get enough, because I think you know, sometimes people get 10 or 15 minutes a day, Mark. And I think even for someone that has a fair complexion, I don't know that 10 or 15 minutes is enough, especially if it's early in the day, right? If they're you're talking about getting sun before work or you know after five o'clock, it's you know, I don't know if 10 or 15 minutes is enough. I so when I look at Michael's Michael Hollik's work, I I think 30 minutes is a is a necessity for most people. Now you get down into the you know, like kind of the tropics, you get down into those, you know, those really uh southern latitudes in uh I, you know, equatorial regions, then I think you know, 15 or 20 minutes can work for for a lot of populations. But for you know, for people that are living in a more temperate latitude, um, and they have time either before work or after work, you know, 30 minutes unprotected, right? No, no sunscreen or sunblock. That's that's really a big part of this conversation this morning. I think it's a necessity. And I think some people with more pigmentation in their skin, uh, more years of sun exposure, like myself. I mean, I've I've lived outside for so long. I, you know, I probably require more sun now than I did when I was maybe in my teens, early 20s. And so you have to take all those things into account, but 30 minutes a day is what Dr. Hollett typically recommends for most people. Um, but to your point, it doesn't have to be at high noon or even at one or two in the afternoon. It could be, you know, nine in the morning, four or four thirty in the afternoon.

Eyes Light And Daily Rhythm

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I really like that, John. That really summarizes so many of the salient points of his work. And and anyone who's out in the sun more regularly will appreciate that there is a cumulative exposure that in the avoidance of a burn will produce more melanin and give you what some might refer to as a solar callus. It protects you. So, with subsequent exposure, your ability to tolerate more exposure without the risk of burning is is made more likely, more possible. Uh so it allows you that adaptation allows you to be in the presence of those wavelengths of light for longer periods of time with less downside, right? It's like working a muscle. Uh and and and and so very similar sorts of principles. And um, you know, there there's no question that um if you if you look at those. Earlier hours less than say 9, 10 a.m. Um after 4 p.m., you will generally um though there'll be ultraviolet light around, it'll be a little less potent. Uh and individuals who may be super fair skinned uh may find those times of the day just a little bit easier to tolerate um at you know that 30-minute a day mark. Um and so um it it this really is largely tailoring your environment, your unique skin type, um to you know, to uh create the the greatest uh benefit you can get with with the lowest risks, and and there are a lot of options there. Um and though this isn't really the the topic that we're into big here, I I often uh um remind folks they're getting out at say 9 a.m. for a half hour or 15 minutes uh to not have sunglasses on. Um it while we're talking about the skin, uh people may not realize that the cornea uh the the uh the the surface of the eyeball is very much epithelial skin-like tissue. And um uh and wavelengths of light, as we've talked about, are very important for chronobiology. So those morning wavelengths, which will tend to have more blue light, are really important to um have access to your retina. Uh obviously, you know, you you you want to be careful of the time exposure as well, but but those tend to be good times of day to be without sunglasses, particularly you know, for that 15 minutes, 30 minutes, uh, and then later in the day as well, where those wavelengths of light, which will skew more toward the red, orange end of the spectrum, and a little less blue are important signaling wavelengths for chronobiology. And we've talked a lot about this. Um so unprotected um skin and uh, if you will, uh, and unprotected eyes. Um you know, and some people may say, well, gee, that sounds a little bit risky to me. Um, you know, you're not this isn't about staring into the sun, it's about just being in the presence of those wavelengths of light at those times of day where risk to your eyes are very, very low, and benefit in terms of the information that will get through your pupils directly to your brain. This is this is the this is the portal to your brain, your pineal gland, your your you know, pretty much uh your metabolic uh centers uh in the brain very much rely on this information to determine how best to chronosynchronize biologic activity. And so um uh that's an important part of protection uh, you know, or lack thereof to keep in mind at those times of day.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah, we have a physical, physiological requirement for sunlight for most of our systems, right? Neurological, cardiovascular, hepatobiliary, you can just go down the list, right? Every system requires sunlight. And so to try to avoid sunlight is going to undermine all of these systems. And I I think that's the way I, you know, I really try to portray this is that you you have a requirement for sunlight and you have this unprotected exposure. What can you do to meet that requirement without maybe overdosing? And that's I mean, if we looked at it that way, I just think it would be a much healthier world. And so, yeah, I mean, let's let's dive into some of the some of the ways people can do it, right? Whether you're wearing a whether you're wearing some type of clothing, a hat, or you choose to use, because I try to use, yeah, I try to use a hat for for most of my sun protection. Um and you know, cool loose-fitting clothing. But from time to time, I'll put on my nose or my face, I'll I'll put a you know, a sunblock. Um, so want to talk about those qualities?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Let's do that, John.

Chemical Risks And Skin Absorption

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Great. Yeah, so there's a couple chemicals that, you know, just most people are familiar with parabens, and parabens are pretty much widely distributed in sunscreens uh in sunblocks. Most of the most of the commercial products contain parabens. And then the other chemical that's more of a kind of a new to, it's certainly new to nature, but a new to uh new to research investigation or topic is this benzophenone three, which as it gets detoxified or starts to get metabolized, and the body becomes benzophenone one. And in some studies, it you know, it's a endocrine disruptor. So it appears to change uh, you know, different components of our endocrine system, maybe has some negative effects on reproductive health. Um, there have been a lot of different investigations on it, and there have been a few that don't appear to show any significant differences uh, you know, in animal studies, but some of them raise real serious questions about the long-term effects of the regular application of any cosmetic that contains it. So, you know, those are just two families. I, you know, we've known other chemicals in the past to have serious question marks around them. And I like the environmental working group as I know you do, Mark. They do a great job of looking at these different chemicals that are in sunscreens and sunblocks and giving them a red light, yellow light, or green light status based on the research that surrounds each one of those. So, yeah, I mean, I think that anything you apply to your skin, and you and I have said this in the past, anything that a person applies to their skin, you have to look at it as something is would you eat that? Because there's going to be a significant amount of transdermal delivery, right? I mean, whether it's a mineral, whether it's a chemical, and and what's fascinating about sunscreens and sunblocks, and to even a greater extent, insect repellents is that, and there are a couple of studies that have shown this, you know, without question, if you combine certain chemicals in a sunscreen, or you combine a sunscreen with known chemicals with an insect repellent, that the transdermal absorption or uptake of those chemicals, it's very synergistic. So it's it's there's an exponential delivery system when you combine, let's say, DEET in an insect repellent with something like benzophenone 3. So what I'm saying here is that if you start stacking some of these chemicals on top of each other, either in a particular formulation of a sunscreen, or you combine one cosmetic or an insect repellent with a sunscreen, that the amount of these chemicals being absorbed, it goes through the roof. Um, there's some real synergistic effects there. So I think that's where you know we're guessing. You know, I think to a large extent, we're guessing. We know that there's increased absorption when you start putting these chemicals uh, you know, together in a formulation. We're we just don't know, but we do know enough now about some of these chemicals that I think it's just a wise decision to avoid them.

Using EWG And Reading Labels

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, that it's so easy to underappreciate the amount of systemic absorption one gets, particularly with regular application and liberal application. In order for these to work, one one needs to be applying liberally every few hours. A typical adult might require an ounce or two tablespoons to cover exposed areas. And, you know, so repeating that over the course of a long day, every few hours, you get a fair uh dose there of absorption. You mentioned, John, I'm just going to uh uh share my screen for a moment. The environmental working group. And uh I frequently recommend this source to individuals who are just interested in learning more about the uh pervasive extent to which environmental toxins from all uh products, you know, um skincare, foods, water. Um they they just do a very nice job of providing objective uh good education so people can better inform themselves. They also have some nice tools with uh guides like this, you know, how to read a sunscreen label. We'll go through this uh briefly. Uh they have um apps. Uh one that I like, John, is called Skin Deep. Yeah. And that's a good one. While we're talking about sunscreens, uh, you know, if you when you start looking at shampoos and moisturizers and makeups and lipsticks and um you know the the it's easy to overlook the fact that that as the modern day human, you were the canary in the coal mine, and all of these things are at risk of entering your system. And and to your point, John, when you start stacking them, um, particularly along the lines of endocrine disruption, uh potential carcinogens. Um and when you look at just the epidemiology today, John, health-wise, of the number of young adults, um, men that have lower sperm counts, women that have infertility issues, ovulatory issues, uh, you know, this these concerning rises in prevalence of endocrine disruptive-related health issues uh is hardly trivial. These are huge public health issues. And while it can be very hard, we always talk about death by a thousand cuts, while it can be very hard to uh um satisfy the challenges that industry poses to come up with one ingredient that is unequivocally shown to do this, this, and this, it can be very hard to prove that. Uh yet we know that all of these chemicals, uh this sort of soup that we're in these days, um, clearly is driving a lot of the chronic complex health issues now that are manifesting at very, very young ages. Uh but this um is uh a nice sort of overview of uh you know your typical sun screens. And again, um as you pointed out, John, they do a nice job of evaluating and then they'll give it a nice, easy green, yellow, red um designation, and uh you'll find many good options that that um might be uh might serve you much better than what you're currently using, whether it be a sunscreen or a makeup. Uh so I highly recommend the Skin Deep Um app. Uh you know, a common question that comes up, John, is what what is the importance of this SPF number?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

And um, you know, is higher better necessarily, you know, and and um yeah, you know it's hard, it it it's it's hard not to laugh at some of the numbers, right? Yeah. I mean 50 plus, I I mean I when you when you get them when you get above like I think 24, you're in flannel shirt territory, right? I mean yeah, it's so I it's hard for me sometimes to say like some of these numbers are just totally superfluous, they're just way above and beyond what's necessary. Um again, I've had people with really fair skin say that they have to use a 30 uh to get you know to not burn if they're out for more than a few hours. And and I and I, you know, I believe them, I respect that. Um, but I when you get into 50, when you get into the 40s and 50s, Mark, I honestly I can't answer that that question. I know that when you're above an eight, above an eight, vitamin D production is blocked. Yes, and and that's the number I know.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, and and and that's a good one to to remember, John. Uh, you know, when I research this, if you look at SPF 15, that will block about 93 percent of ultraviolet B light. Um, if if you look at an SPF 40, that blocks 97 percent, an SPF 50, 98. So once you get above 15 to 30, you're not getting a lot more protection. Um and and so generally, I like you, John, I'll tell folks, you know, there's not much value in going above 30. If you have a 15, that's terrific. Uh and if it's lower than that, the you know, the implication is you'll get some protection. Uh, you just may need to apply it, you know, a little more frequently. Uh and and and so that uh that that's just a quick overview of the of the SPF. Um broad spectrum, th this is uh an important um attribute, right, John? We we the implication here is that you're you're blocking uh both UVA and UVB. Uh and and that's the the implication of broad spectrum as as opposed to just a UVB blocker, which will certainly prevent burn. Um but I you know I we're advocating that people have a broad spectrum uh product. And then, you know, this this uh this is another frequent sort of gee, I I you know, I want something that's water resistant, my kids are in and out of the pool. Um most of the data that looks at water resistance will um measure the effects at uh 40 minutes and uh 80 minutes um you know while swimming, sweating, um uh so that um generally you don't want to be going more than I'd say 80 minutes tops or an hour and a half tops uh uh after swimming without a a reapplication. So um that's the testing that's done here with respect to that uh that designation. Uh uh and then maybe most importantly, as as you touched on, John, is the active ingredients and um you know the uh environmental working group basically recommends uh products with zinc oxide or titanium dioxide, uh which appear to be safe. Um those are approved by the FDA, but you know, not everything approved by the FDA is safe as we know. Uh and avoidance, you know, you touched on sort of the oxybenzone because it is more easily absorbed and clearly has um hormonal disruptive effects. Uh and so you know, these are this is just sort of the basic um uh you know, make sure you're getting enough, applying it um every few hours, uh, not going too long after uh swimming, uh water exposure, and again uh being very mindful of the potential toxicity. Uh so the environmental working group does this analysis on just thousands of products, very robust database, and um uh they do some good work. Would you add anything to this, John?

SPEAKER_01 38:57

No, I wouldn't other than you know, when you go to a a beach that has, you know, very large numbers of people swimming. You go to a pool. Wow. I mean, doesn't doesn't take you long to notice the uh the oil slick that emerges on the surface of the water, and then it makes me say if I want to go in there. I'm gonna I'm gonna end up wearing every sunscreen that's on the market, right? Just coming in and out of the water.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

A little bit of uh urea nitrogen and uh and the microbiome as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Yeah, it's a microbial soup combined with combined with about 50 of the top selling sunscreens out there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah. Yeah. So uh it's some of the I know you've got some products, John, that you thank you for doing that. And yeah, it's great. Um I'm excited to share these for sharing the fruits of her diligent due diligence with our yeah, yeah.

Cleaner Sunscreen Brands We Trust

SPEAKER_01 40:00

No, I'm excited to share these uh with folks. So the company that I like the most is uh Badger. Badger is a uh very, very clean, just company overall. They have a variety of different skin products. They have aloe vera that's pure aloe vera, they have um, you know, just everything you can imagine that you can apply topically. But if you read the ingredients on a badger product, I mean it's it's again, it's like something that you'd like a salad dressing more than it is a right than it is a sunscreen. It's coconut oil, uh, wax made from sunflower, made from sunflower seeds, vitamin E, uh, and obviously it's got zinc oxide in there. And it's not a it's not a nanoparticle form of zinc oxide, which I still have some concerns or questions about. I, you know, we don't have research per se showing that the nanoparticles are are gonna cause issues, but we know that minerals have a certain check-in balance system in terms of how they're how they move in the body and how they're transported. And I, you know, my concern with nanoparticles is that they're gonna circumnavigate some of those physiological pathways that you know that are you know have been part of the human process for hundreds of thousands of years. So I try to avoid nanoparticles, and Badger does that. Um, so that's that's a great company. And then here's a small company um that people will have to find, most likely online. It's called 1924. That's the brand. Again, super clean ingredients, um, shea butter, avocado oil, beeswax, cocoa butter, uh, and zinc oxide. Uh so that's a that's a great, great company that also hydrates skin. And so it's you know used for more than just a sunblock or sunscreen effect. It also helps with dry skin. Then a company called uh Babo, which is primarily for kids. Babo is uh, again, this is a spray, it's a pump bottle, very clean ingredients, also just zinc oxide. I try to stay away from titanium dioxide, by the way. Titanium is not a mineral that the body really needs. So my concern is that it's gonna be, you know, it's inadvertently gonna replace a mineral in a in a in a particular enzyme or something that that there'd be a more ideal fit for based on you know the molecular weight and things like that. So all of these are just zinc oxide. And then this is a more expensive um sunscreen, but it's made with very clean ingredients. It's Ursa Major. That's the name of that brand, Ursa Major. Um, and again, this is uh it's non-nano zinc oxide. It states that right on the label, and it's made with basically components of olive oil uh and beeswax, and all of these last a fair amount of time on the skin. Um, they don't leave us with, you know, like an oily slick, and they can be worked into the skin uh to an extent where you don't have that white mask that some people care more or less about. So those are four. There's another one called Attitude that was started by the surfer, Kelly Slater. Um, and that's a really good product as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

So yeah, and I we we use a lot of attitude and badger products. Attitude has some nice moisturizers and other skin products, and and uh, you know, as most people once they find a brand that they trust, and you know, it's just nice to have a brand that you know meets all these criteria um for you and especially for your your children. Um so yeah, thank you, John. Really cool off. And again, the EWG um skin database is it's fun to go through. You you might uh take 20 minutes and put in products that you currently use routinely, not just for sunscreens, but uh maybe a toothbrush or a shampoo, and it and it's it's an eye opener to be. Reminded what is in this stuff. And so we um surely encourage people to get lots of sun, be strategic and sensible, as we we talked about, protecting, yeah. I think clothing is still the gold standard, right? Of of protection. But in instances where you you have prolonged exposure, definitely picking a non-toxic um sunscreen will help you greatly. Uh so you get the best of both sides of the coin. That's the goal. And that is the goal. Um, you know, it is uh as we bring this to closure, John, it is interesting. Uh, and I I come back to Michael Holleck's amazing research through the years of how um outdoor workers, people that work outdoors in very uh you know sunny climates like Australia, uh, you know, they have lower melanoma risk. Uh yes, that regular exposure, they get that solar callus. It's the sun exposure that uh is incrementally protective, right? Um our body has its own sun block in the form of melanin, which is also a very active molecule, as we've talked about, um uh for circadian biology and uh you know antioxidation. Uh so you see um, you know, in in indigenous cultures that wouldn't know what a sunscreen was if you know you put it in front of them, uh, you know, they they find ways to adapt to the sunny environments that they're in. Um they have very low, not just melanoma risk, but but all of their chronic complex disease risks, as we've talked about in other forecasts, are much lower. And um I I think it was Dr. Holleck that measured vitamin D levels and a lot of indigenous uh African uh tribes and and and cultures. And you know, they ran like mid-40s, high 40s to 50. You know, the body doesn't just keep making vitamin D, right? It our bodies are so intelligent. Um, they'll they'll sort of find that sweet spot. And uh and and the the callus that we make from regular sun exposure will limit the extent to which we overproduce, right? The bodies just don't behave in that unintelligent way when the conditions they're exposed to are optimals. So uh let that intelligence work for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Yeah, that's that's so well said.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Well, we uh thank folks for listening into the Health Edge. We'll um uh put some of this information up on our website, the health edgepodcast.com. Uh, if you like this content, um feel free to share it with your friends and family, and we're grateful for you. And John, I'm grateful for you.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

And you as well, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Ready for another sunny day.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

So yeah, uh that's right.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Yeah. All right, John. You take care and be well, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Yeah, you too. Love you. Take care. You too.